I’d agree that we haven’t actually seen Communism executed correctly. I was more focused on socialism, which also has not been executed correctly but we do have ready examples. All of the examples of socialism we have seen have failed because the states that adopted socialism (or attempted skipping straight to communism) were not ready to do so. In order for socialism to take root and eventually lead to a communist system, the capitalist system has to develop, create massive gaps between wealthy and poor, begin to collapse, and then once the collapse begins to take shape the state begins seizing control of the means of production. My initial post was a little tongue-in-cheek but my point was that capitalism has reached the pinnacle. Development is slowing but the gaps between the wealthy and poor are increasing. More production is expected for less pay but those at the top are making massive profits. This is exactly what Marx predicted would happen. Like him or not, he was a brilliant economist and if things went this direction, would the future be so bad? I understand your point about free association…but why would free association be precluded in communism? You wouldn’t need to associate to make a buck and instead could do so for the purpose of community building. Seems like a good deal.
Oh - and before I get hammered on this one - please divorce Soviet style Communism/Socialism from the equation as I have already agreed that it was not executed correctly.
okay lets put aside the soviet experience, even though that and Mao’s china, Castro’s Cuba is what we had to compare.
Tell me where worker rule has controlled the mode of production?
The only thing I can think of is “the Paris commune” and that last a mere 73 days or so?
Lets take your example or Marx’s example of Workers rule the mode of production
Lets use GM as an example they employ what?? 280,000 world wide, so all workers now own and run GM, in America its about 170K people
So we get rid of all the executives who actually dont work on the floor, or sales, or marketing
get rid of the board of directors, shut down the stock, no outside investments from firms
The 170K workers control, who decides what each person earns?
I assume a committee of volunteers right?
does everyone work 9 to 5 or still shift work?
what about overtime
where do you sell the cars, does the Dealership exist?
what about marketing the automobiles?
what the about GM plants overseas?
The computer was invented by a Charles Babbage, and he was spending his own money. As did the various achievers of the past such as Leonardo da Vinci, and Henry Ford.
The one thing which creates an environment for rapid advancement is pressing urgency. This normally occurs in times of war, and industrial activities in those times are normally entirely controlled by governments. Hence the apparent benefit of government, although in reality it is the indirect benefit, an unintended benefit, of an external aggressor.
In such times the armies who possess the greater technology defeat those who are less well equipped. This has been demonstrated in the two recent World Wars, and has examples right back at least to the Roman era.
The element missing from Capitalism is philanthropy.
Non-government funded inventions. DVD and Compact Disc technology, social media ( ) and the entertainment industry. I don’t maintain a list so I will stop there.
NOTHING and I mean NOTHING is free. THAT is why we’re against Socialism. We understand that for you to receive something for nothing, another has to work for no pay. We are against Socialism because we’re against SLAVERY.
Let me address a few points to give it the time it deserves, thinking that maybe you’re here to learn rather than troll which I suspect you’re doing based on your avatar.
Take a good long look at government housing and let me know if that’s something you want to live in. For the most part, it’s the worst of conditions in the US, housing people that are forced to tolerate high crime rates, low quality of life and as a result, gangs pop up and make things worse.
Sure… until you realize those same places harbor human misery. High single parent rates, high incarceration rates, etc. Again, your time should be balanced between earning a living and caring for your kids. THIS gives you the best shot at a decent quality of life.
Nonsense. What is the birth rate in Venezuela right now? How about the murder rates? Just because poor people sometimes have lots of kids doesn’t make it preferable to the rates among capitalist nations. Why do the birth rates drop? Free choice. People begin to understand having 2-3 kids gives them a much better shot at quality of life, in addition to providing their kids the best shot at a quality life as well.
Yeah, less abortions… don’t need those when government is busy doing the murdering.
Ever had a government job? You do realize that PRODUCTION creates wealth, not jobs, right? I can pay someone $50 an hour to stand around and maybe he’ll be happy with that wage but what it doesn’t do is create wealth. It simply moves my wealth to that person. Creation of wealth is what improves quality of life, not transfer of wealth.
How the hell do you take care of the elderly by stripping them of their accumulated wealth? They worked their ass off for 50+ years and all of the sudden you come along and take what they own because YOU know better how to spend it than they do? What if they have a farm that they want to leave to their kids? I suppose screw them, their decades of hard work is yours to do with what you please.
Government sucks at research. It’s the exact reason why they pay private companies to do R&D on military equipment. Take the promise of profit off of the table and exactly ZERO research will be done in society.
Capitalism has built the most powerful economy on the planet and given the best quality of life to the most people in history. What’s slowing it? Government control and intervention. . . you know, the same twits that will run the entire country in your socialist utopia.
Then you delve into racism which completely kills the entire attempt at debate. If we don’t buy your snake oil, we’re racists. That about sum it up? Well, let me conclusively tell you that you can go pound sand. The left is stuck on slavery and hasn’t changed their want to enslave other human beings in spite of slavery being abolished in 1865. You can give up on slavery, we will NOT tolerate it no matter how many times you ignorantly call us racist because we see the bullshit you’re peddling and don’t want it.
Your kind would have us believe that shit sandwich is chocolate, ignore our lying taste buds…
Well, yes - government funding f research by for profit companies. Government research is very poor, slow, subject to political whim,
Uhh, projecting your own fears today? No one is alarmed if Niel deGrasse Tyson moves next door, they might be, if a family of loud, belligerent Section 8 clowns move next door - but if they are POC- then such concern is magically racist…
Hmmm, you don’t know any conservatives, do you? When these ‘protected’ groups display modern, self reliant, and industrious behaviors, we’ll be happy to have them here. but that doesn’t fit your whole narrative the xenophobic ‘other’…
Police or fire departments are not the responsibility of the federal government, they are the responsibility of municipal and state governments,What do you think the legitimate role of government is?
In America, our constitution and Declaration of independence spells it out perfectly.
The government isn’t socialist, one of the best lines I’ve heard defining socialism was from Cyril Joad
“Socialism is like a hat that has lost its shape because everybody wears it”. Everyone claims to be a socialist. Whatever an individual adopts is named socialism
The problem with Socialism is, it’s an ever-changing concept. The change of social, political, economic conditions with the change in attitude the concept simultaneously undergoes changes. ‘
The late Sir Bernard Crick wrote “socialism is the product of the modern world". It has no precedent in the ancient or the medieval worlds and this is from a democratic socialist and political theorist.
State run education, museums, libraries and such doesn’t make it socialists , the workers dont run it and they certainly dont profit from it, the government does
Bottom line central planning doesnt work, no matter how much Sanders and AOC claim, or Marx and Engels or any other marxist that came after them
I saw a man-on-the-street interview with a college girl who stated she like socialism because we all use social media. That begs the question, what do the kids who say they like socialism believe socialism is?
Yeah I don’t think so! Conflate much? That is what Taxation is suppose to take care of but your dimwitted Democratic leaders keep misappropriating the coffers to their benefit with out solving problems thus whenever they get into office the only solution they ever employ is to raise taxes in order to bridge the GAP of their fiscal irresponsible policies! I think you should move to Norway if you love socialism so much instead always bitching about how Americans should be subjected to your pie in the sky day dream that has already proven to fail. It’s because of entitlement spending that we have a debt if 22 trillion thanks to your incessant crying on how we need to have free things! See California on why socialism fails!
Social democracy is what Sanders has been advocating, not true socialism. He does not support one of the main aspects of socialism, namely the government control of production. Democratic socialism with properly regulated capitalism as our economic structure is the best, and sort of what we’ve had all along.
If it doesn’t work in the microcosm, it will be a disaster in the macro.
Would you like your life “properly regulated”? Would you like someone to intercede between you and your wife’s relationship when you argue and how you raise your children when you disagree? Be the determining factor on your behalf? Do you welcome that?
When you ask for regulation, be careful. Because “proper” is entirely subjective. And you may find you don’t like the definition of “proper” as times change.
The argument for socialism is the same boring unoriginal idea that keeps surfacing masquerading as a new one! It’s like a broken clock, it is right twice a day, yet doesn’t stop the communist from trying to sell you one!
Incorrect, yet again. The sad truth is that you all have no clue what Socialism actually is. Having social programs and government spending on those items is NOT Socialism.
Look at the definition… how the hell do those programs fit with this definition?
socialism
[ soh-shuh-liz-uh m ] the theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
Ownership and control of the means of production. What we have here is a governmental system that benefits by siphoning money from the CAPITALIST system. Government does NOT control the means of production, though they’re certainly doing their best to push that way.
When you look at these nitwits pushing for things like the “Green New Deal”, NOW you’re headed to full Socialism because they’re not talking about private companies doing that stuff, they’re talking about running businesses out and replacing them with government.
You all either need to educate yourself or stop lying. Socialism is an absolute disaster and should be fought to the death in this country, lest we give up the amazing quality of life that CAPITALISM has afforded us.
Years ago because a tax thing the federal government ended up owning a whorehouse … they tried to run it but had to shut it down because it was losing money.
I’ve always wondered what the GS rating was for prostitute and did they get transferred to other government service when their, um, department shut down?
Since those in various degrees have appeared at times and places and for purposes completely unrelated to socialist theory you’ve no right to pretend that they are inherently socialist.
) and the entertainment industry. I don’t maintain a list so I will stop there.