That’s my perennial mantra…
Imagine if Woodrow Wilson never got us involved in WW1, the war would have been a stalemate and Germany wouldn’t be or have been subjected to the Treaty of versailles, Russia would have pulled out of the war and the Bolsheviks would have come to power
No Soviet union
No soviet union , no communist China and other countries
Hitler wouldn’t have come to power, no WW2, no WW2, no prosecution of ■■■■■ No Israel
FDR serves 2 terms only.
No FDR dying in office, no atomic bomb being dropped over Japan, No Truman no Korean war, No Eisenhower, No JFK no assassination , no LBJ no vietnam war, No vietnam war no Nixon, no watergate, No Ford, no Carter, No Reagan no fighting communists , No
weird huh?
or weirder what would have happened if Lincoln wasn’t assassinated, how would black folks be treated after?
It was always a shell game! The same methods Clinton used were probably the same but evolved with more sophistication used for his private ventures as well! They don’t call him “slick Willy” for nothing!
The Revolution was inevitible whether the US got involved in the war or not and the Soviet Union was inevitible.
The rest is pretty accurate except you seem to be forgetting that Fascism didn’t start in Germany and of course you’ve forgetting the Japanese expansion in the Pacific, the largest theater of the war.
The revolution , I take it you mean the Bolshevik revolution in Scumbag Russia?
except that Fascism would not have begun if it wasn’t for marxism or particularly Gentile and Mussolini, why did Fascism start? because they were disillusioned about socialism and marxism, they didn’t like or appreciate the bolshevik revolution
Japan allied with Italy and Germany, if Hitler never came to power , there is no nazi germany, no USSR there would be no Fascist Italy , No Mao in China leading rebel forces and General Chiang Kai-shek leader of the Republic of China is not fighting multiple fronts including the sino japanese war.
The USSR wouldn’t have existed because WW1 was the reason why Lenin and bolsheviks came to power, The Russian army along with the DUMA overthrow or forced the Czar to abdicate in feb/march and they took over,
Woodrow Wilson convinced, conned, or whatever he did convinced the Russian Military to stay in WW1 and after defeat after defeat , and not enough supplies food, many soldiers fled and the Lenin and bolsheviks welcomed them and then they overthrew the Provisional government oct/nov and formed after their civil war the USSR.
No doubt there would be war between China and Japan and America would assist China like it did for the Soviet union but not go to war with China , there would be no WW2.
I’m sorry but this is completely inaccurate.
The roots of the Russian Revolution predated the war by a decade or more and communism was going to rise with or without WWI.
The alliance between Japan and Germany was only one of them agreeing to leave each other alone in their expansionism.
Some would argue that Japan was offended by the Europeans during the Armistice talks where they were basically ignored because the Europeans felt them to be racially inferior but Japan had been racing towards becoming a first world nation since the 1890’s and was following the European colonial model to achieve it.
The Roots of European Fascism simply began with the conflict between the socialists/communists and the other Nationalists and so the conflict between the two was inevitable.
What could have been avoided was a total WWII but there would have still been continuing smaller wars in Europe, an eventual collision between the Soviets and Japanese in Asia, and Japan would still have tried to conquer the entire Pacific in their colonial quest.
That being the case GB would have still been drawn into the Pacific War along with the US.
I didnt say it wasn’t, I said they came to power because they saw the opportunity when they witness a mutiny of Russian military from the participation in WW1, as the provisional government had no business entering the war.
Yes I know that, my point as if the Americans didnt enter WW1, Germany wouldnt have lost or been stripped of her military , assets and colonial territories and no Treaty of versailles, that is what fueled the rise of the Nazis
With all due respect that is what happened, we all know, my original point was if there was no German surrender because of the Americans tipping the balance in the allies favor there would be no dividing up Germany territories
Fascism started in Italy, and because of what happened in WW1 Mussolini and the italians felt slighted
yes and no, WW2 wouldnt happen, that I agree on , and there would be smaller wars, mainly between in Asia , but I doubt the Soviet union would have existed if America stayed out of WW1, remember the Provisional government was the one that got overthrown because the Soldiers were tired of the Provisional government ineptness
Lenin only came back a month before the Oct/Nov revolution and even then there were problems as Trotsky controlled the red army, the soviets controlled the factories, The white army was still loyal to the Czar, socialists were loyal to the provisional government hence the civil war and the American and Brits sent aid and equipment.
Even during the first five years of the USSR existence they almost collapse if it wasn’t for that idiot Herbert Hoover before he was President, sending over food and aid to Lenin, the Russians would have starved.
Do I think Japan would have attacked America? eventually but they had their hands full in China.
and without American and Soviet help to Mao’s red army , half of China would be in Japan’s control
And you remain wrong.
Our entry into WWI only broke an existing stalemate. The Germans were already exhausted and their economy in tatters.
The Russian Revolution didn’t take place because of the war, it began decades earlier as more and more Russians got fed up with the rule of the Royal Family.
Communism was on the rise and would have continued to rise irrespective of our entry into the war and the Russians would have still had to pull out, bring the troops home to protect the empire.
No matter how the equation works out you still have the eventual fall of the Russian Royal Family and the rise of the Soviet Union.
Germany at best could have fought to a negotiated peace, they could not have defeated the allies.
Now what very well could have changed the equation leading to WWII in Europe would have been not screwing the Germans so badly in negotiations for reparations and the crusing of their economy. Wilson bears a huge amount of responsibility there. He had promised the Kaiser that if he signed the Armistice the US would see to it they were treated fairly in the negotiations for same.
Japan still becomes an emperial power and launches the wars in China and The Pacific regardless of the outcome of WWI because the Europeans still figured they were genetically inferior.
What a load of bull, first off liberals have no values! Secondly its the socialist Democrats and valueless liberals having the hissy fit because Trump has put a wrench into their autocratic dreams.
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“Classical Liberal” not “liberal”.
Just because you dont agree with me doesnt mean Im wrong, it means you dont agree and I have to make a better case.
But you did say the magic words…Stalemate, both sides were at an impasse with severe loss of life.
The truth be told, we had no business being in the war, Woodrow Wilson stuck his beak into a conflict and the result of that was undesired consequences that followed
Both sides acknowledged they were at impasse and would have sat down to figure out a solution, no victors but Germany would have remained intact and the NAZI party would be just another fringe party .
Marxism not communism was on the rise, the bolsheviks participated in the Feb/march revolution but most were killed and Lenin fled to Finland, the soldiers, Duma, workers got together and forced the Czar out.
When Kerensky the vice-chairman of the Petrograd Soviet and was the Minister of justice in the newly formed Russian provisional government became the new Prime Minister, also took on the role of commander and chief of the military did not pull the troops from WW1, Lenin , Trotsky and the other revolutionaries sprung into action and overthrew the provisional government and that is known as the bolshevik revolution.
I said that already, which Is why I said that we ( The Americans) had no business entering WW1
So you kind of agree with me, If America didn’t enter WW1 to tip the balance , Germany would have negotiated something and there would be no rise of one Adolf Hitler hence no WW2
I would agree with that.
You’re simply wrong on the facts.
Stalin joined with and then eventually led the Bolsheviks during and after the revolution and they dominated the Duma until Stalin consolidated his power and purged large numbers of them.
Even without Hitler there would have been another major war in Europe within the same relative time period, the alignments would simply have been different but as long as England was involved we’d have eventually been drawn in.
Japan would still have gone on the offensive and likely would have clashed with Stalin over China or negotiated a split between Japan and Russia to avoid going to war with them until all of the Pacific had been secured.
In a huge twist of fate had Hitler chosen to attack Russia before attacking England and France there’s a very good chance France and England would have aligned themselves with Hitler or whomever had risen in his stead.
You are simply wrong about the rise of communism in Europe as well as Fascism, they were inevitable with or without Hitler.
You have your facts wrong my friend, Stalin was in exile during the first revolution , he and a few of his comrades ousted the editor of pravda and became it editor publishing Lenin’s letters from abroad when he was exiled in Finland.
During the second revolution in Oct/Nov 1917 he climbed the Bolshevik Central Committee ladder and played a major part in the civil war not the bolshevik revolution.
Wars in Europe yes, but nothing to do with us, Why would England get involved unless a country attacked her or her colonies and even then many of the countries with colonies figured out it was too expensive to maintain which why many colonial masters encouraged independence
No youre missing my point, the USSR would not exist if the provisional government kept Russia out of WW1
Russia might have existed under a new system but not enough to go to war , the Russian people didnt want war, this was Kerensky downfall and the rise of Lenin as he promised to take Russia out of the war and his famous slogan
’ Peace, Bread and land '. Which appealed to the masses.
sorry not to be rude but you’re changing the subject now, this has nothing to with the bolshevik revolution
Fascism was started by an Italian philosopher disillusioned with Socialism
Communism thanks to Marx and Engels and their international committees did make a run, Lenin was the first to implement it and was either a stroke of luck or opportunistic when kerensky made some major blunders and not pulled out of the war.
Are you telling me that the bolsheviks were the key in the first revolution in Feb/march 1917?
The Key? No but a big part of it.
The Party was formed in 1912 and was a big part of the revolution. By 1918 they had the second largest numbers in the Duma.
no, the history goes back to 1898, it was originally called “league of struggle for the emancipation of the working class” formed in St.Peterburg, Russia in 1898 by Vladmir Lenin, Julius Martov and 4 others
they merged with another workers organization in 1900, then Lenin left and joined the The Russian Social Democratic Labour Party (RSDLP) and his old friend Martov joined in 1900,
The party ended up splitting into two main factions, the Bolsheviks (meaning the majority) and Menshevik (the minority)
Lenin led the Bolsheviks and Martov lead the Menshevik, which is bizarre because the Menshevik had more members yet they accepted the Moniker “Menshevik”
Back to the first revolution, it was the workers, women 1000’s of them to celebrate international women’s day , apparently there were upwards of 200K protestors demanding shorter work week, bread among other shortages of food
The Czar order his forces to fire upon the protestors and they refused and joined the workers protesting, that wasn’t because of the bolsheviks, some of the leaders were there, Lenin, Trotsky, Markov of the Mensheviks, State Duma , and they decided to form a provisional government sharing power with the Petrograd soviet, a counsel elected by workers.
And the Czar decided that if he wanted to save his life and families life and his country is best to abdicate
facts
In 1912 Lenin, leading a very small minority, formed a distinct Bolshevik organization, decisively (although not formally) splitting the Russian Social-Democratic Workers’ Party. His determination to keep his own faction strictly organized, however, had also alienated many of his Bolshevik colleagues, who had wished to undertake nonrevolutionary activities or who had disagreed with Lenin on political tactics and on the infallibility of orthodox Marxism. No outstanding Russian Social Democrats joined Lenin in 1912.
Nevertheless, the Bolsheviks became increasingly popular among urban workers and soldiers in Russia after the February Revolution(1917), particularly after April, when Lenin returned to the country, demanding immediate peace and that the workers’ councils, or Soviets, assume power. By October the Bolsheviks had majorities in the Petrograd (St. Petersburg) and Moscow Soviets; and when they overthrew the Provisional Government, the second Congress of Soviets (devoid of peasant deputies) approved the action and formally took control of the government.
Didnt I just say that??
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He seems to have a habit of confirming what his opponents say as if he knew it all along. He seldom, if ever, admits to being wrong. The only incident I have seen of it is when he once admitted being caught misspelling a word.
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Speaking of a load of bull. Of course they do, just because they’re different then yours, doesn’t make them nonexistent.