The Truth About The 2nd Amendment

Somebody doesnt know their history
You really think back then there were only muskets?
LMFAO

Well there were “assault type” of weapons back then and our founding fathers were well aware of them.

The puckle gun, Gatling gun, pepperbox pistols all capable of firing multiple rounds, the Girandoni air rifle, Belt & flintlock ( remember the Lewis & Clark expedition) you would have called them “ assault rifles” and questioned why citizens need those guns when the average gun owner had a musket

you should read the letters between Joseph Belton ( Belt & flintlock fame) and congress, he was commissioned to modify the musket, and how his new and modified gun is capable of firing up to 16 balls in seconds, Not minutes… SECONDS.

Congress eventually scraped the order because it was too expensive, the official government language. “An extraordinary allowance”

So did the founding fathers outlaw those firearms? The answer was…. NO.

Those guns certainly out performed the musket.

According to whom exactly? Someone who’s never been in a fight?

The carbine was specifically developed for close in fighting.

The right to bear arms has been restricted and regulated, even at times with the blessing of the NRA, on many occasions, without any changes to the second amendment whatsoever. And that will continue to be the case.

Don’t bet on it. 25 years ago your side was saying we’d never see lawful carry in more than a handful of southern states an thanks to the Supreme Court all 50 states and DC are now not just lawful for carry, they are all “Shall Issue States” meaning they can no longer refuse to allow carry to anyone who is legally eligible.

30 years ago when your side was cackling about the AWB they declared the 2nd Amendment effectively dead and promised to come after the rest ASAP. More than 50 million firearms have been sold since and since the expiration of the AWB the AR platform rifle is the number one selling platform of all rifles.

One more Trump appointee and 50 years of restrictive gun control in the US will be effectively dead and the 2nd Amendment will be restored.

Maybe a personal preference but I would much rather be opposite a AK / AR at thirty or forty feet then a 870 loaded with 0 or 00 .
A little back up for my preference !!

A shotgun is a multiple projectile weapon for close range combat. Since it is simpler than modern rifles, it was developed quite early. In the American Revolution, Gen. George Washington encouraged his troops to load their muskets with “buck and ball,” a load consisting of one standard musket ball and three to six buckshot, to increase the probability of a hit. Shotguns were used at the Alamo, by the Marnes in the war with Mexico in 1846, and in the Civil War by Union and Confederate forces, primarily by cavalry units. Followin ghte Civil War, U.S, Cavalry units employed shotguns during the Indian wars between 1866 and 1891. Shotguns saw service during the Philippine insurrection (1899 to 1914), and by Brigadier General John Pershing in the 1916 punitive expedition into Mexico in pursuit of Pancho Villa.

When the United States entered World War I in 1917, General Pershing’s forces employed 12-gauge pump action shotguns, loaded with six No. 00 buckshot shells, for close-range defensive fires against enemy infantry assaults, trench raids, and assaults on enemy trenches and machine gun positions. The shotguns were fitted with bayonets and a heat shield so the barrel area could be gripped when the bayonet was employed. This style of gun, with heat shield and bayonet, was the “trench gun”. Shotguns without these features were “riot guns”. Later, when trench warfare was no longer a military concern, all shotguns were referred to as “riot guns” even if equipped with bayonet and heat shield.https://olive-drab.com/od_other_firearms_shotguns_history.php

When the United States stepped up the deployment of troops to Southeast Asia beginning in the early 1960s, it was recognized that shotguns could be of value for fighting in the jungles and similar terrain. The World War II-vintage trench guns (and some riot guns) were refurbished as necessary, and many were sent to Vietnam. Most of those guns were Parkerized, and any worn or defective parts were replaced as part of the overhaul process. The refurbished World War II shotguns that saw the most use in Vietnam were the Winchester Model 12 and Stevens M520-30 trench guns. A few Winchester Model 97 shotguns saw use during this period as well—even though most of them had been disposed of as surplus by the government in the late 1940s.
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Even with the “recycled” World War II guns in inventory, it was obvious that the supply was going to be exhausted before too long, and contracts were given for the procurement of new shotguns .
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It was determined that smaller size shot, such as “No. 4 Buckshot,” would be better suited to certain types of combat situations than the standardized 00-buckshot. To this end, ammunition of this type was adopted as “Shell, Shotgun, Plastic Case, No. 4 Buck, Special, XM257.” Early versions of the XM257 shells were red plastic with the nomenclature stamped on the outside while later production shells were made of green “subdued” colored plastic. The XM257 No. 4 buckshot was packaged in the same type of 10-round boxes as the XM 162 No. 00 buckshot, and both types of No. 4s were used more or less concurrently from the time of adoption through at least the early 1990s.

While not well suited for all types of combat applications, shotguns proved to be of value in many engagements during the Vietnam War. Night ambushes and perimeter defense were two applications in which shotguns especially excelled. It is reported that American units armed with shotguns had higher “body counts” than similar units without shotguns.

After the United States’ withdrawal from Vietnam, combat shotguns remained a part of our armed forces’ inventory. Some of those used in Vietnam, especially the Ithaca “S-prefix” and Stevens M77E shotguns, are seldom encountered today because the majority were left in Southeast Asia.

While the M14 and M16 were the primary infantry small arms of the Vietnam War, the various combat shotguns also provided valuable service to our fighting men on many occasions. In certain combat situations, there is no deadlier arm than a slide-action shotgun loaded with buckshot. Many Viet Cong and North Vietnamese discovered what German troops found out in the trenches of France during the World War I and what the Japanese realized in the jungles of the Pacific during World War II: A determined American with a shotgun is a fearsome opponent indeed!

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.https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2016/4/22/combat-shotguns-of-the-vietnam-war/

The XM26 / M26 MASS Modular Accessory Shotgun System has its roots in requirements for a lightweight accessory shotgun, formulated by US Army in 1997-98. Original solicitation for prototype was won by private US company C-More Competition, and by 1999 several XM26 underbarrel shotguns were issued to US troops in Afghanistan on an experimental basis. XM26 MASS program faced temporary delay between 2001 and 2003 due to US Army’s preference for a stand-alone XM1014 Joint Service Combat Shotgun (JSCS). However, field experience forced US Army to resume development of XM26, and by 2008 the now-standard M26 Modular Accessory Shotgun System entered official service with US Military.

The Kel-Tec KSG-25: The Deadliest Shotgun on Planet Earth?

The KSG-25 shotgun is a fairly impressive engineering achievement. Manual shotgun technology for the most part plateaued decades ago, and it’s refreshing to see a new take on the pump action shotgun. While not for everyone, the KSG-25 provides unmatched levels of firepower.

Quit reading soldier of fortune and talk to the guys who actually do it for a living.

If shotguns had been the preferred weapon in Vietnam, we’d have issued them to all or most of the men in infantry squads.

Usually there was one shotgun per fire team or squad as they were preferred for clearing underground tunnels and structures where you could stand up and the 1911 was preferred in those where you could not.

Most fights were under 100yds but still the weapon most preferred was either the M16 or M14.

In both Iraq and Afghanistan it was the M4 carbine.

Special ops leans heavily on the M4 variants for close work and for sub guns such as the HK MP5 and MP4

SWAT/Recue teams lean heavily on the MP40 and M4.

Shotguns have their place for sure but they are not the first choice of most professionals who do it for a living and literally put their lives on the line regularly in close fights.

Shotguns are most effective for people who have accuracy issues, for crowd control etc and specialized work like clearing tunnels and trenches.

More often than not though the pro’s will pic the rifle, carbine, or sub gun in the vast majority of close contact fights because of the combination of accuracy and rate of fire.

A good guy with a gun stops this perp

Happens about 2.5 million times a year here and more often than not the gun never even has to be drawn much less fired.

Just knowing someone can resist them with a gun deters the vast majority of such attempts.

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The prosecutor is a wus, the charge should have been aggravated robbery and assault.

Between the kicks to her head and face when she was on the ground and the continuing nature of the attack even after the robbery was over more than justified it.

That POS needs hard time, not a slap on the wrist. Next time he’l come back madder, more committed and almost certainly armed to make the next victim pay for his incarceration.

I can only tell you from shoting both and seeing what a 0 / 00 does to an animal compared to the 22 cal 55 gr 5.56 there is no comparison to the carcass damage !
You can stick your snide quips where the sun don’t shine !
We aren’t talking about professionals we are talking about deranged people who for the most part are not very good at killing unarmed people up close under 100 feet where a shotgun or hand gun works best for untrained with limited range time !
Most of these people purchased there weapons with in a couple of months of using them .

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Nice history…:+1:

Shotguns are by far the least frequently used of all platforms for self defense. Number one by miles are handguns.

If you want to talk about hunting that’s a completely different world.

BTW, it was you that started off making claims about what the professionals used, not me.

My carry weapon 50 years ago. Shotgun (Beehive) round underneath, FMJ on top.

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Why so long ago, you don’t look that old…:man_shrugging:

BTW " A rifle is a poor tool for close work a handgun or even better a short barrel shotgun loaded with 12 Gauge* 0 or 00 Buckshot 12 Pellets per shot vastly superior to the modern rifle !" That is my opinion and I and sticking with it .

The only thing that trumps a 12 gauge for close work is a hand grenade in my opinion .

Night ambushes and perimeter defense were two applications in which shotguns especially excelled. It is reported that American units armed with shotguns had higher “body counts” than similar units without shotguns…https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2016/4/22/combat-shotguns-of-the-vietnam-war/

They needed to send in a SWAT team to rescue the police from one man. Impressive.

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What are you talking about? Most of the weaponry available to civilians today is 100+ year-old technology.

And your point is?

If you say so - but afterwards it would have to be reloaded wouldn’t it? How long would it take before being ready to fire off another 16 balls, most of which I daresay would miss their intended target if it was a shotgun type device. See the difference between that and having a few magazines to hand? Anyway we’re going around in circles now so I’m dropping out of this thread.

You mean there were fully automatic high calibre repeating assault weapons 100+ years ago? I didn’t know that. I get the distinct impression that weaponry like that is available to civilians. But what do I know about guns.