It shouldn’t be confusing, this is a debate not about political parties but the ideologies in which they are founded on. Democratic Socialists is not the same as Progressivism, in terms of the ideology, while the two can cross pollinate in their causes, the two have separate births of thought!
So you’re saying Bernie Sanders isn’t a progressive? You might need to tell him that.
No, he is not! He is a socialist who masquerades as a progressive. Of course the progressive brand today is no where near the brand when it was founded in the 1870’s much like the term “Liberalism” has been hi-jacked by the left, which brings into question the people who call themselves progressives do they really know what that means?
Uh huh. Why haven’t any of the real socialists claimed him as one of theirs then? I missed where he advocated for government ownership of the means of production or distribution which would be the dictionary definition of socialist. You seem confused to say the least.
I am not confused. Just because what politicians say what they are and not say what they truly believe does not indicate their true colors! I think the article you are citing is a little confused if you want to be honest, something I would question is the motives of the author! Come one man, you should know this! How many times have seen it on the the Republican side in the past? Where they claim to be a conservative but in reality are globalist schills? Bush 43? Hello? Sanders is closer to being a communist which aligns more to socialism as well as AOC!
So you say. Actions speak louder than words. Again, what has Sanders done that makes you believe he’s really a socialist (now a full blown communist apparently) masquerading as a progressive? I haven’t seen anything. Enlighten me.
I really don’t want to talk about Sanders, I want to debate the topic of Progressivism VS. Conservatism!
But there is plenty of written things about Sanders and his past that supports my view, of course that is an opinion I am expressing, but you are free to use Google and research this for yourself.
You made the claim but apparently can’t back it up. I’m going to simply bow out now since it’s clear you don’t understand the difference between progressives, socialists, and communists and thus “debating” these seems pointless. Carry on.
Ok, well to be honest I wasn’t avoiding it, I just don’t want the topic to be derailed from why I created this thread. Do you understand or are sympathetic to that?
I think you are making a wild assumption about what my understanding of these political ideologies are, so just to make a point if you type in Bernie Sanders and communist party there are many referenced sights that make connections to socialism and Marxism, and Bernie Sanders. AKA, Communism. Not really hard to figure out so I am not sure what your angle is here. Are you defending Bernie Sanders? Are you a Bernie Sanders supporter? If you are then be clear about it. Personally I don’t think you are, but clearly there is something more to your retort that you are not leading on to and I would appreciate it if you can be a little more honest in what you are driving at!
2 Likes
So what? If a “sight” connects Donald Trump to Conservatism that magically makes him a Conservative despite everything he does or has done to the contrary?
I asked for one thing Sanders has actually done or even advocated for that would make him a socialist. Again you come up empty. I’m done here.
Now you are making wild leaps along the line of putting words into my mouth. Where did I ever claim that Donald Trump was a conservative? Never and I don’t believe that he is!
So in other words you want me to spoon feed you your answer because your too lazy to do it yourself?
Ok perhaps I have mistaken what you are asking, but here is your proof!
I think you missed my earlier point about politicians in general claiming to be one thing then another when it suits their dichotomy for getting elected to office!
Here are more examples what Bernie Sanders supports that is considered Socialist ideas!
1. Free college — Sanders has earned the support of millions of young people by promising free college for all. By some estimates, however, the “free” college could cost taxpayers $70 billion annually, according to an estimate by U.S. News .
2. Single-payer healthcare — Sanders would love to get the government even more involved in the healthcare system than it has been in the age of the Obamacare and VA scandals. Sanders envisions “a Medicare for all single-payer healthcare system” that would replace private insurance companies with government programs. According to one estimate highlighted by the Fiscal Times , Sanders’ plan would add $14 trillion to the national debt.
3. Scandinavian-style socialism — Throughout his campaign, Sanders has said the socialism he envisions is akin to that of Sweden, and he has sought to distance himself from socialism’s Cold War stigma. During his appearance over the weekend on “Saturday Night Live,” Sanders poked fun at himself with the help of actor Larry David, but did make sure to note that he believes in “democratic socialism” and not just “socialism.” “What’s the difference?” David asked during their sketch. “Yuuuuge difference,” said Sanders, Raw Story reported .
4. Massive wealth redistribution — In 2008, then-Sen. Barack Obama had to backpedal after he said his proposed tax plan would “spread the wealth around.” Eight years later, Sanders is running on an outright socialist platform, promising a number of big-government programs that would require a massive increase in taxes, as well as a massive transference of wealth.
5. Political revolution aimed at the wealthy — “Wall Street and the billionaire class has rigged the rules to redistribute wealth and income to the wealthiest and most powerful people of this country,” reads a passage from Sanders’ campaign website. “Your greed has got to end,” it continues. Sanders then promises “a tax on Wall Street speculators who caused millions of Americans to lose their jobs, homes, and life savings.”
6. A big minimum wage increase — According to Sanders’ campaign website , the senator from Vermont promises to increase the federal minimum wage “from $7.25 to $15 an hour by 2020.”
7. A hefty estate tax — A President Bernie Sanders promises to “create a progressive estate tax on the top 0.3 percent of Americans who inherit more than $3.5 million,” according to his website.
8. Economic protectionism — Many news outlets have pointed out that Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump have both called for curtailing free-trade between the U.S. and other countries. “Democrats like Sanders, and some tea party Republicans, are highly critical of the Pacific Rim negotiations, with Japanese autos remaining one of the major sticking points. Trump, too, has railed against the deal,” CNN reported in August. Both men believe that curtailing free-trade will create higher wages for American workers, however many economists say that curtailing free trade makes the nation poorer overall.
9. Expand Social Security — Sanders would expand Social Security through tax increases. “We have millions and millions of seniors trying to get by on $11,000, $13,000 a year in Social Security benefits,” Sanders said Friday, Time magazine reported . “Trying to buy some bread, some food, some medicine, trying to keep their house warm. You know what? You can’t do it on 12,000 a year.”
10. Curtailing free speech — “Criminalizing things is very much on Bernie’s agenda, beginning with the criminalization of political dissent,” National Review wrote in July. “At every event he swears to introduce a constitutional amendment reversing Supreme Court decisions [like Citizens United] that affirmed the free-speech protections of people and organizations filming documentaries, organizing Web campaigns, and airing television commercials in the hopes of influencing elections or public attitudes toward public issues. That this would amount to a repeal of the First Amendment does not trouble Bernie at all.”
You seem to be confusing scientific progress with political progressivism. We wouldn’t have this forum to discuss things if it were up to progressives, there would be laws against hate speech, as defined by people like the SPLC and this place wouldn’t exist.
4 Likes
So I’ve been thinking, in a way, the right is ideologically homeless right now. The conservative movement died in either 2012 or 2016, and some weird half-dead version of Libertarianism with nationalism shoved in is what the mainstream Right is right now. Trump-era “Libertarian Nationalism” is nothing but a stopgap for the death of conservatism. So, if we’re in the predicting mood, what do you think will replace Conservatives? I think we should all disuse the term “conservative” altogether. Looking back on what the conservatives actually achieved, well, we all the answer to that one: almost nothing, if not absolutely nothing. But something struck me today, why did the conservatives fail? How could a movement based on the conservation of tradition fail at its only task? Because the conservative movement was never about conserving anything. allow me to elaborate
What was the conservative mantra? What do they say about culture? The left loves saying that conservatism and conservatives were about preserving the “status quo”, be that’s bullshit, I have never heard a conservative say that. No, what did the Conservatives say? they said this: “Society must alter slowly.” -Russel Kirk, I mean FFS, what did anyone expect? At least with “status quo”, the goal is to at least stop “whig history” on some level. But “alter slowly”? it’s like the right wasn’t even trying. Its like the conservative movement set itself up for failure from the beginning. And that’s what’s so damning about “Conservatism”, its a lie. The real goal was not upholding traditional values, but to provide some half-assed damage control for the Lefts shenanigans. Back in 2012, the re-election of Obama and the legalization of “rights for gay couples” was the final straw that broke the back of the movement. And the Left knew it. They almost began acting as if they owned the place, that they were “the right side of history,” and now nothing was standing in there way between them and Utopia! And then trump entered the stage Turns out acting like an asshole makes enemies, who would of thought?
Kind of so. There is no Republican Party, just the party of Trump…
This is a thread about two ideologies not a Trump bashing one!
1 Like
I think you expressed this point of view already in another thread previously so why rehash this point of view here? I mean if you want to debate the differences between the two stated ideologies stated in the OP then great, but I would have to disagree with your definitions of conservatism and how you see it in present day discourse.
That’s interesting, care to elaborate?
Yeah nice try, but you are not fooling anyone here with your trolling!